dragonimp | biting tongue

Entry tags:

fma,
manga

biting tongue

And it meant a lot to me that the series was written and drawn by a woman. I am sometimes bothered by the fact that so few of my artistic heroes are women, especially comic drawing women. I very much enjoy the work of many female cartoonists, but they all tend to be about my age or younger, so I consider them more peers than artistic heroes. Arakawa was not only older than I am, but damn prolific, and she’d written and drawn a series that had many of the things I craved to put in my own comics: action, adventure, magic, limbs getting lost, brotherly love (I actually really enjoy stories about male relationships, especially brother relationships. Readers of my old webcomic Demonology 101 will recognize that), and KICKASS LADIES. Oh man, the ladies of Fullmetal Alchemist. THE LADIES! Strong and tough and funny and sweet and NEVER VICTIMS and every inch equals to the men in their lives (Roy Mustang and Riza Hawkeye’s respectful and deeply loving relationship just makes my heart ache), the ladies of Fullmetal Alchemist were my wildest dreams come true. It didn’t matter to me that they weren’t the main characters of the manga, because they never played second fiddle. They were their own characters with their own lives, not written to stand around and “support” the male characters. While I do care about having main female characters in media, I’m perfectly fine with main male characters as long as there are female characters who are CHARACTERS, not props for the male character’s journey.

I don't disagree with most of what she's saying here, but I have to wonder if she missed the huge, massive scene of Riza/Roy codependence. The man I love is dead, so I will SIT HERE and WAIT TO BE KILLED is not "every inch equals to the men in their lives". About any of the other ladies I agree, though.

She's also going on about how great the last chapter is so I'm going to keep my mouth shut. Though I agree that it's very good that it has an ending, unlike stories that get dragged on and on forever until they're so thin it's pathetic.

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I am continually disturbed by the number of people who think that Riza's 'devotion' to Roy is so amazingly romantic and sweet and wonderful. Um. The woman has stated that she will willfully kill herself if anything happens to Roy. How is that anything to be admired? I don't know, and I truly don't think I want to know.

I agree on other points, but that whole Roy/Riza comment just gave me a case of wtf.

I'm almost less bothered by people thinking it's romantic devotion than thinking they're somehow still equals and independent. Or I guess the first one disturbs me but the second just outright baffles me because she was so CLEARLY dependent. Gah.

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I think it goes beyond 'shipping, though. I 'shipped them until that scene. Even with rose-tinted 'shipping goggles I wonder how someone can view them as equals and independent when, like you said, there was too much, superior/subordinate, too much hero-worship/obsession. But it's not worth getting into an argument with this person, I don't think she'd appreciate it.

The ending left me flat, too :P. This person was going on about how perfectly happy and wonderful it was.

I would add re: Roy/Riza that I feel there is far too much history between them for them to possibly function as lovers. I'm aware that this is one of the arguments used in favor of shipping them, but that history is pretty damn steeped in guilt. The fact that Roy misused (even if it *was* under orders) the knowledge that she entrusted to him, thereby becoming the very thing she wanted to avoid-- that's got to be a pretty major obstacle to romance. And how could Roy ever touch her without remembering the smell of her flesh as he burnt her back?

Maybe I'm extrapolating a bit much here, but while I totally buy into the two of them being united in their ideals, I think the possibility of romance is starting to strain plausibility.

Just my two cens. ;)

Yeahhhh. I've always seen Roy and Riza as loving each other, but not being in love with each other.

Especially on Roy's side. He clearly cares about her, but I always got a more big brother/paternal vibe from him. Of course, I might've been distracted by the overwhelming Roy/Hughes at the end, but still, I never got the sense that he viewed her in any sort of romantic way.

I'm rather with you, in regards to these opinions. Although, given some time and perspective, I doubt that Roy and Riza could function as a couple (which I commented on below B's comment). And I'd also like to add that Winry's kickass character was completely diluted by the end of the story- something that really aggravated me. I had always liked how she was just as strong as the Elrics, but somehow she became subsumed by the same stupid trope you see all too often in manga- the girl who meekly waits on her hero. I mean, by the final chapter she even had the stuttering and stammering and blushing down too. (Yeah, yeah- she was in love and confessing, whatever. That's still not the Winry we were introduced to.)

And I think my biggest problem with the ending was that it was *too* pat. Everybody gets happy endings, which is nice, but not very realistic. In fact, the thing I liked the best about it, was the Roy still had to climb to reach his goals. He was the only one really left working for his happy ending-- and let's face it, that's really more the way of life. (And I'll admit, it's simply my personal preference that I'd rather see the messy, loose-ended shortfalls than the happily-ever-afters, so long as it's real. And the final FMA chapter just didn't ring true like the rest of the story did.)

Someone pointed out that Riza seems to have transfered her issues with her father - devotion, need for approval and acceptance - onto Roy, which is probably the best explanation for manga characterization that I've heard. But it makes 'shipping them more than a little creepy.

I was bothered by Winry at the end, too. She's such a great character - or was - but then she got turned into standard manga girlfriend A and anything that made her and Ed work together - either as a couple or even just friends - was lost. But heaven forbid someone tell the EdWin shippers that.

And yeah, that's exactly why the ending bothered me. So when this person was going on about how perfect and happy the ending was, all I could think was that was the problem! I guess I'd rather that than have the story be dragged on and on, but I'm not going to be pleased.

Trytelling that to my friend (the oen I posted about) Apparently her lying about the screw and not telling ed? Totally a okay since it is showing how couples tend to lie to each other and such like a real coul. Um small lies yes but she almost fucking killed him cause of that! Sorry that is NOT something that is okay :/ I don't be liev in lies at all but really? A little lie like, Oh I put on this perfume, not this one, I can get, not Sorry I almost killed and didn't tell you...

Let's not start on the other friend who finds the killing herself rize thing romantic. Fuck, to em it shows how much she didn't give a fuck about roy's dream to do that. Friend: Maybe she knew Ed could be fuher and stop everyone. Um FUCK NO, do you not know a single fucking thing about Fma? Well she likes to say "equivlant exchange" when she wants what her ex boyfriend says to me but says I can't tell him stuff. Um no, Ed ward elric would slam your fuvking brains with his automil... The joys of people who aren't in fandom but act like they know everything.. I don't dicuss fandom with rl people for this reason >_>

Not only lying but it's my fault your arm broke but since you haven't noticed that I'm going to CHARGE YOU a bunch to fix it. I can accept it because she's 15 and 15-year-olds do stupid selfish crap like that, but that does not make it okay. I don't think it's okay when other couples lie to each other, either, I think it hurts the relationship.

Maybe she knew Ed could be fuher and stop everyone
Wow, that's a new one on me. That's waaaaay stretching for a justification. Really don't think Riza was thinking that clearly or thinking at all right then.

Yeaaaah, sometimes it's like banging your head against the wall. That's one reason I'm not going to comment to this person's blog post.

She was trying to justfiy how riza wanting to kill herslef is somehow the most romantic thing ever. I was telling her how it wasn't and quite frankly to me, showing that she doesn't respect roy nor his dream for a damn good country. If she wanted to kill herself, wait til his dream was fulfilled, instead she showed how, to me, she didn't give a fuck.
Friend: But it wasn't worth to ehr without roy!

Doesn't matter, Roy would not be happy that she left the world like that just cause he died, he'd never be with her because she did not care about what he wanted done which is something I find a huge issue with manga roy/riza. first anime I adore them but this one.. no.. hell even in the first anime, even hough I don't like winry at all, at least she went on to better her damn job and not just say NO MORE FUTURE FOR ME, I BE STAY AT HOME WIFE NOW. Manga while good, kinda ruins some of the strong ladies I like, Thank goodness for Oliva and Izumi

And yeah, she was trying to think of everything single thing she could to justfiy the riza. And really ed would never ever do that job

I'm pretty convinced we're meant to take Riza's obsession as codependent and unhealthy. I know we're supposed to think Ed and Winry are some sort of perfect manga couple, but even Roy berates Riza for the way she acted. I kinda think people are missing the point when they think it's "romantic".

Thank goodness for Olivia and Izumi is right.

Yeah...I was ok with them as a ship until that very scene then I started detesting the whole idea of it. And from what I've seen in fandom, neither of them are depicted as the strong people they are when they're in a relationship together.

Yeah...the ending left me with mixed feelings. Some aspects I liked and would've liked to know more about but then others I just didn't like.

I still ship them from the first anime, Riza was a much more grounded and independent person in that. I've sorta been avoiding anything post-manga Royai, because the few things I've seen have been so sappy and white-picket-fence-ish that they made my teeth ache. I just can't see them doing that.

I got into a long argument over the ending in fandom!secrets a few weeks ago ^^;. I know a lot of people liked it but if someone implies that I "should" be fine with it or that some element or another should put "enough" bittersweet in it I get irritated.

I haven't seen all of the first anime so can't talk about that but yes, 100% on the post-manga fics. I've seen a proliferation of wedding/marriage/baby fic and I just can't see that.

Ugh. That's just annoying to the utmost.

Well, basically it's Riza without the backstory of her father or details of Ishval and without that scene with Lust. It's clear that she cares deeply for Roy, but without the hints of codependence or obsession. And when he had his emotional crisis and went off to his emo hut at the start of the movie she let him stew up there, instead of something like chasing after him or codling him, but when he got over himself and came back to Central she was clearly glad to see him. I always thought they balanced each other well.

Tough I can see where you are coming from(f!s and all),personally love doesn't make sense in the first place.Love is co-dependant and unhealthy, I fail to see the point. They're obviously each other's weakness and it's being used throughout the manga. How exactly did you expect her to react to his death? I'm putting myself in her place and I can't see how would she survive without him, shipping aside, his dreams? After Ishbal only thing that kept away from suicide is Roy's dream for country's sake and their own redemption.Also I'm sure if chapter 94 didn't happen, he'd perform human transformation without a second thought.
Love isn't equal nor support any idea(and this includes feminism time to time).I respect her a lot for the sacrifices she made and her power on Roy.Let's face it, without Riza Roy isn't a complete character.So I guess this makes Roy weak too?

Maybe I misread or missed parts, pardon me I can't use pc now but it's surprising that you didn't mention Lan Fan? And as for Izumi what if they used Sig against her how would she react? The most important thing in these characters is they're human and they all have emotinal weakness like us.Riza is the best sharpshooter in military, a very smart woman, the part completes Roy Mustang, someone who experienced a lonely and painful childhood but despite that kept on living, someone who took a part in a massacre, who burnt her back and tried to repair her damage afterwards.She experienced "much more" than any other ladies and you're saying she's weak just because she's in love? I, myself fell in love and I know other people who experienced that feeling so I guess I can tell; love makes you stupid.Yes, when you are in love you can sacrifice yourself for "that one".It's not surprising nor something person should be ashamed of.

I'm really sorry for my rambling and for my potential mistakes but it's very good to talk with other sides :')

Ups almost forget, I agree with you about manga's disappointing ending but not because it was too happy, because the way she handled politicial issues. I think Roy won't get a happy ending since he'll be executed after democracy.She'd have made a time-skip to show his execution, it would add a perfect emotion to ending and would make the series a masterpice.

Well, first, I don't consider Riza's characterization in the manga faulty, as in being bad writing or something. Her characterization makes sense and is perfectly valid. I just don't like the character it makes. Second, love is not automatically co-dependent and unhealthy. Izumi and Sig are devoted to each other but we're not given any indication that they're co-dependent. They would each be devastated if the other died, but we're not shown that they would give up on life and wait to die. Roy loves Riza but we're not shown that he would turn suicidal if she died. He went mad with revenge over Hughes' death, but he didn't give up on life and his goals and sit and wait to be killed. I never said Riza was "weak"; I said she was dependent on Roy. Roy depends on Riza as a comrade and ally but is not dependent on her the way she is on him. Riza puts herself on unequal footing to Roy - she puts him above her - with her co-dependence. Love alone wouldn't do that. Love means we sacrifice ourselves for our loved ones, yes, but it doesn't mean we sit and wait to be killed if we think they're dead. I could just as easily argue that if she truly loved him she would fight twice as hard to see his dream fulfilled after he was gone. Love doesn't dictate that a character would go one way or the other, the character's other traits do. And in this case, it seems to me that Riza's actions indicate an unhealthy co-dependence.

I didn't mention Ran Fan partly because the blog post I was reacting to didn't mention her specifically, and partly because her relationship with Ling was always master/servant. It's unequal by nature and we're never told otherwise. But even so I didn't get the same co-dependent vibe from her that I got from Riza. She's devoted because she loves him but also because he's her prince, she's culturally conditioned to put his life above hers. Riza isn't.

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